Throwing in the towel

Last night was the end of my Circle project. I don’t think I’ve ever been so badly violated by the dice before, and to make matters worse my opponents dice were on fire, but that’s not why I’m throwing in the towel. I’m surrendering because I don’t like the ‘way’ I’m losing, and that might require some explanations. Back when I first decided on Circle I considered it a Faction that required an extremely creative player, but I was wrong. Circle does not require a creative player, it requires a player that makes no mistakes, and that’s something entirely different.

Last night I was pushed hard and had lost most of my heavy hitters, but I had the game in the bag as long as Ghetorix didn’t frenzy due to the one Fury I had to leave on him, so of course he did. Then I really put on my thinking cap, and I came up with a plan that would win me the game despite overwhelming odds, and it was a brilliant plan, but during the execution of that plan I made one mistake and didn’t move my Gallows Grove in B2B with the flag, so I missed my opportunity and lost.

You cannot forget anything with Circle, you cannot mess up a single sequence, and you cannot place any model anywhere except exactly where it should be. If you make no mistakes Circle has the power and tools to rampage through almost anything, but no matter how hard I flap my arms I still can’t fly, and I will never be able to avoid making small mistakes like that either.

It has been mentioned that Circle can run attrition with team Baldur, but I wanted to play a guerrilla list, hitting and melting away, or attacking from odd and surprising angles.

Next up is Legion, and I got a great deal on models a while back (about 100 points worth of models for about 150 dollars). I’ve always been attracted to eThagrosh but I’ve fallen in love with pVayl as she seems able to do what I really wanted from Circle. I might hit the same wall as I did with Circle, but when I look at Legion most models are appropriately costed, and have that little extra ‘something’ that makes it interesting to play with.

The presence of Lesser Warbeasts makes it possible to really play with Animi, and the ability to tweak an army while it’s on the table makes me¬†inappropriately excited. Incite makes the battlegroup more reliable, and is like Primal for everyone without the drawbacks, as long as it doesn’t cost you the game of course, but pVayl has some impressive defenses. Dark Sentinel should be a lot of fun with Proteus (Mr. Spaghetti-face), and defense 18 against most shooting (with Tenacity) makes her a hard women to kill.

I’ve also wanted to play with a Raek since I first saw the model, and pVayl has Leash which makes it crazy fast. I’m not sure I want to include a Seraph, but even without one most support casters will die if they get even the tiniest bit careless, and 17-19″ threat makes it almost impossible to hide from the alien monstrosity (assuming I also bring a Seraph so I can get Vayl up there with incite).

Finally the Blackfrost Shard gives Legion something that Circle doesn’t have, which is the ability to stack buffs/debuffs where needed, and that’s huge for some casters, and stacking them with Incite makes for some serious game changing every now and then.

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26 Responses »

  1. Well, I can see your reasons ending the circle project.. are you simply putting them on the shelf and wait if the gargantuan book and SR2013 removes some of the problem, or do you drop them outright?

    Regarding Legion: Now this is kind of funny. You move from circle to pVayl, cause she can do the shenanigans you searched for in circle. I branch out from legion, playing mainly pVayl and eVayl, to circle ’cause I want a second Hordes faction that can do similar tricks. But I don’t play steamroller that often and I -most likely play with a more casual approach than you.

    I know that you already read some of the topics in the LoE PP sub-forum and I know that you like to do things your own way, but I don’t think that you will get much from the BFS with pVayl.

    Assuming that you want to keep stealth on the unit, you can either threw out two -2DEF magical attacks or swap one try for Kiss (+2damage). The thing is that the BFS has a magical skill of 7. That’s a nice number, but won’t do much against high-def targets, unless you manage to move a non-reach model with chiller inside the 2″ chiller bubble and hope that the target doesn’t have reach either. Not to mention that chiller+incite buffs your beasts to MAT10 anyway, which is pretty solid. So you are basically paying 5 points for +2 damage buff stacking on top of incite or hitting something, that’s not in incite range.

    Sure, if you manage to stack all of those effects a sycthean goes from MAT6 P&S17 to MAT12 P&S21….the thing is that legion feels pretty point-starved thanks to their warbeasts costs and even less spells to properly support infantry than circle has. And the key targets for such a scythean would be in the gargantuan/colossal range, where you may prefer having wraithbane to get rid of Arcane Shield or Death Ward.

    I like the BFS and sure, circle doesn’t have such a buffing char unit. But they are far far away from the awesomeness of the WSC and esp. with pVayl I rather spend those 5 points on a naga, which has access to stealth too (prowl), hands out wraithbane and gives you a boostable RAT6 untyped ranged attack. Which you want to have to kill gorman, before he black-oils you heavies. Or to shoot a incorporeal solo in a SR scenario.

    Seraph pretty much depends on the kind of pVayl list you run. SS gives you thread-ranges with a single heavy similar to tricks circle can do and allows for some odd angles. It’s ranged attack isn’t too shabby with incite either. It’s kind of a limited version of TK bound to a 8pt warbeast animus, that forces you to either activate and move your warlock or the warbeast in such a way, that it triggers the requirements. Which can sometimes leave the seraph in odd places or prevents you from going somewhere else and shoot stuff like Eiryss.

    I started playing pVayl with the typical sycthean+seraph+typhon combo and it worked well, as long as you opponent doesn’t rush you. Nowadays I play a more ranged lists, that removes key models like Tartarus or Gorman at range and then sucks my opponent into leash+charge range of my heavy hitters. Which is still 13″ with a sycthean or 14″ with a angel.

    But if you already have a seraph: Give it a try, even with the changing meta and the ravagore, it is still far away from being a terrible warbeast. I rather play pVayl with a seraph, than use Proteus even with the possible Dark Sentinel drag shenanigans.

    Raek with pVayl is solid. Not necessarily with leash (which could work too, if you manage to then move, jump and headbutt something), but primarily for the possibility to jump into odd places and mark enemy models with chiller, before your heavy hitters move in a wreck them. Or mark a non-reach warcaster with chiller w/o engaging him and pour some shots into him with either raptors, a leashed(+SS) typhon or a ravagore or two.

    pVayl def. is a tool-box, she simply hates to play against magic hate and stuff that blows up her warbeasts at range. Chances are not too bad, that you will like both her and her epic equivalent, which lacks the damage buff but has a way to hand out stealth to BFS and allow the unit to run or tripple-stack debuffs on a target.

    • That’s something to think about. I tend to think about BFS as a slightly more expensive A&H that can also debuff defense, instead of WSC. I’m pondering a dual Angel pVayl build right now, but there’s no rush :)

      • Yeah, but A&H can run turn one…Don’t get me wrong, those guys are not terribly bad. But the aren’t stellar either. Personally I would only field them with warlocks who either can give them stealth (eVayl ), boost their magical attacks (B&B feat turn), or don’t have any other way to hand out a MAT buff for their beasts (pThag).

        And with the naga it’s pretty hard not to spend 5 points on her instead: prowl, wraithbane, more synergy with our warlocks and one of the two untyped ranged attacks on a eyeless-sight model.

        I mean try to look at it from a cryx perspective. What would bother you more. A legion army on the other side of the table that…

        a) has spend 5points on the BFS, trying to debuff your warjacks (the -2def is a single model effect) and maybe your warcaster.

        b) fields a naga and maybe a succubus on top of that, giving your opponent a 16″ (or more if he uses leash or slipstream) range tool to kill Gorman with a boostable RAT6 POW12 crit poison shot and the ability to hand out wraithbane, allowing him to cut through defensive buffs like spectral steel, death ward or remove incorporeal models like machine/pistol wraith and threaden eDenny on every single turn.

        Regarding the dual angel with pVayl: That’s what I’m playing around with atm too. Mainly because it shares a lot of models with my eVayl list and allows me to carry a very limited stock of models with me, while commuting to the local store on my bike.

        • That depends a lot on the setup, but just to be clear my current build uses both. If I have both then I can ignore defensive spells and debuff def/arm as well, but I see your point.

          The comparison isn’t completely fair though, since both choices brings something else to the table as well. This list is no where near finished, but currently I’m thinking something like this:

          Vayl, Disciple of Everblight
          – Naga Nightlurker
          – Nephilim Soldier
          – Raek
          – Shredder
          – Shredder
          – Angelius
          – Angelius
          – Scythean
          Blackfrost Shard
          Succubus
          The Forsaken
          The Forsaken

          Naga Nightlurker as discussed, Nephilim Soldier as backup hitter, but mostly due to the way Massacre interacts with the Angels, turning them into infantry munching machines.

          Raek for surprise assassinations or dealing with support units (unsure about this one). Shredders for obvious reasons. Double Angels for a round of hit and run, heavy damage, or infantry removal.

          Scythean to handle Colossals with Blessed, Kiss, and Incite, or simply deal with any attempt to rush the lines. BFS as discussed, and a couple of Forsaken because I like them and because they seem like great deterrents.

          • A bit more defensively I’m thinking about doing something like this…

            Vayl, Disciple of Everblight
            – Naga Nightlurker
            – Nephilim Soldier
            – Shredder
            – Shredder
            – Angelius
            – Angelius
            – Typhon
            Blackfrost Shard
            Blighted Nyss Shepherd
            Succubus
            The Forsaken
            The Forsaken

  2. I’ll vouch for massacre on angels, keep chiller on one of them and that one can really go to town on units. I originally had blackfrost in my 35-lists, but they eventually had to make room for anyssa who makes an excellent solo hunter / durable arcnode :)

    • It seems promising, but I burned my fingers badly on Circle so I’m reserving judgment until I see it on the table.

      I’m also fairly conflicted about the Typhon/Scythean. Offensively the Scythean is a more limited toolbox, but his Animus might make a lot of difference in many match-ups, and Reach/Pathfinder is a big one.

      Why does the Teraph have to be so bad when the model is so amazing. Also, it’s standard procedure that I try and fit in a Totem Hunter, since I’ve owned him for so long without finding anywhere he really fits in :)

  3. Scythean is the only model you actually hope for people to make tough rolls against XD I’ve had him in all my lists but just got typhon and will try him instead for a while :)

    • Very conflicted about it so far. The Scythean just hits so hard, and with Leash a 14″ threat is impressive, and with Chiller/Incite he will be MAT 10 & PS 21 which is just jaw dropping. The thing is that he probably won’t make it away again with C&M unless I can clear out just about everything, but maybe he doesn’t need to.

  4. What a shame. I enjoyed fighting the angry treehuggers, but i guess that your enjoyment is more important, when it comes down to choice of army.

    Hope you shelf, but dont sell, the Circle.. the urge to field them might come back..

    • I might sell of some of the unpainted models, but I’m a hoarder by nature so there’s no way I’m selling the things I’ve painted. There’s always future releases to keep an eye on, and PP has said several times that they’ll be expanding the Hordes factions in the near future.

  5. Current setup looks like this. The models I’m missing are in the mail, so it should be up and running next week sometime.

    I would have liked a Seraph in there but I don’t see it fitting in all that well, and I would have to seriously weaken the list to do it.

    I hope Leash will be enough to ensure a threat range dominance against most lists, but only time will tell.

    Vayl, Disciple of Everblight
    – Naga Nightlurker
    – Nephilim Soldier
    – Shredder
    – Shredder
    – Stinger
    – Angelius
    – Angelius
    – Scythean
    Blackfrost Shard
    Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt)
    Blighted Nyss Shepherd
    Succubus
    The Forsaken
    The Forsaken

    I think a setup with Swamp Gobbers and Tenacity should alleviate some of my fears when it comes to getting the Angels shot up or debuffed badly, as defense 17 is a tall order for anything to hit reliably. The Stinger is there in case enemy models run to engage.

  6. I’ve been thinking a bit about the Stinger, or more accurately it’s Animus used with Vayl and the Angelius. It has a move, attack, pulse, and retreat (Refuge or C&M), which leads to a staggering number of combinations when you can suddenly mix and match.

    The list of crazy shenanigans is a mile longer even before adding Overtake, which skyrockets this into the crazy shenanigans stratosphere, though Pulse being an Animus does limit it a bit.

  7. Hm, it’s a pretty unusal list and you don’t see soldiers and the BFS with her that often, but I guess it could be worth a try… the only thing I don’t like, is the huge amount of support pieces you’re fielding.

    In theory two massacre-chiller angels remove up to 12 models, if you don’t repulse, fail to hit or suffer from successful tough-checks. Or 8 if you repulse with both angels and then use your feat to pull back. The BFS on top of that allows the scythean to charge a heavy with increased MAT, with good chances to trigger the chain-attack.

    Stinger: Yeah, the tricks are nice… but why not swap some lessers for a vessel? Vessel+martyr replaces a shredder+stinger, allows you to create even more lessers if the enemy runs living infantry and gives you some more weird angles for threatening casters and solos. Spawning a harrier after moving the pot can get rid of Gorman too and allows the naga to do something else. and having a spell martyr allows you to threaten another hordes player with a early Rampager, something you can’t do that well with the “hit your own models and channel through them” approach.

    • Good point, but I’ll be keeping the Stinger at first, because it looks like a lot of fun. I could maybe look into swapping a Shredder and the Shepherd for a pot, but spell martyrs don’t seem like a solid choice with her, but maybe I’ll change my mind when I try it.

      • Ordered a Spawning Vessel… those guys look fun, and unless someone manages to shoot the hardy pot, the thing should easily pay for itself. How did I miss that piece of jewelry :D

        • The Vessel is awesome…you pay 3 points, get 6 guys…even if you only kill of your own guys you get two lessers which are worth 4 points,,,and if it collects corpse tokens inside its 4-10″ bubble (either from a screening unit of your own, or enemy models) it can create even more value.

          It’s also pretty neat with eVayl, not only for the tier list but its a DEF5 ARM18 model you can hit with you oraculus and arc spells through it.

          It should also allow those wacky shenanigans you love so much:

          – move 6″+ place stinger within 3″, charge and hit a warlock/warcaster with a POW 12+4d6 reach attack.

          – move + place a harrier withing 3, charge and trigger the animus for a pow 10+3d6 auto hit on gorman from up to 20.5 inches away. Then sprint away…

          – use a beast with two open fists, throw your own vessel over the enemy lines, activate it and place a lesser…

          Nearly every time I field a infantry unit I add a vessel, it’s just that awesome.

          • doh, too fast:

            Spell martyrs are great, “even” with pVayl and you want to buy a blister anyway if you’re ever playing her epic Version.

            What it does with pVayl:

            – cycle a spell on targets you can’t reach with a oraculus-node
            – threaten your opponents beasts with a rampager early on. you can also drag beasts into incite range, you wouldn’t have catched otherwise w/o overextending pVayl or your own beasts. If he fields a high-MAT non-character beasts with a low-midrange warlock you can walk over and try hitting his warlock AND change the facing, that it won’t charge you in the next turn…

            Rampager isn’t a cheap spell, but having one martyr makes it far more threatening, esp. w/o sacrificing models of your own that have more value.

  8. Not sure what I can remove to fit them in, but I already own three so trying it out is no problem. I usually don’t like removing my own resources, but I do see the point of Rampager.

    I’ll keep it in mind when trying the list, though most of my models haven’t arrived yet so It won’t be this week.

  9. Vayl, Disciple of Everblight
    – Naga Nightlurker
    – Nephilim Soldier
    – Shredder
    – Angelius
    – Angelius
    – Scythean
    Blackfrost Shard
    Spawning Vessel (Vessel + 6 Grunts)
    Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt)
    Spell Martyr
    Blighted Nyss Shepherd
    Succubus
    The Forsaken
    The Forsaken

    <= That's what I would do… you get one martyr and still have one shredder for early game tenacity. If you really think that you need a Stinger at the start of the game, you can still kill three of your vessel grunts and spawn one early. If not, just move the 6" unit up right in the center, use the vessel to block LOS to important models (succubus, Vayl herself) and to increase buff-spell ranges (autohit the vessel, channel through it = 15" range for spells like tenacity, chiller, wraithbane).

    Doesn't change the list too much, but gives you a wider range of tools.

    • doh… “need a shredder at the start” should have been “need a stinger at the start…”.

      • Behold the power of EDIT… Mwahahahaha! Erhm, well it’s something to consider. It seems I get to play a major tournament with my unpainted Legion in about a month (Tough I did threaten to spray everything pink because of the lack of paint requirements), so I have to get some games in soon :)

        • Pink?…Hm Legion of Everlove? Well, you could do that… I’m still waiting for Maelstromgames to ship my damn warpwolves kits.

          By the way: I could get a min-sized unit together with eKaya and a woldwarden for 45‚ā¨ incl. shipping (and a lotf, but that would be a model I would sell to a budy of mine). That’s a decent bargain in my opinion, but with PP having discontinued the upgrade blisters, it would be pretty hard to upgrade them to a max unit in the future.

          What was your opinion on the Bloodtrackers in regard to min vs max sized units? I know that you fielded them only as min sized unit + UA, but what that intentional or did you simply skipped the large unit because you only had a old 6 girls unit sitting in your cabinet?

          Cheers Karnstein

          • I love min sized units :)

            I found that offensively speaking the min sized unit was almost as effective as the full unit, because I had to layer them in order to avoid ‘death by AoE’ anyway, and a lot of the girls never did anything.

            Defensively the full unit usually failed the morale test from losing the first wave anyway, so a minimum sized unit took a few more tests but didn’t waste as many points when they failed.

  10. Hmm, I think I might switch the Stinger for a unit of Farrow Bone Grinders if I’m taking the Vessel. I can murder the grunts on the first round and spawn the Stinger, getting a free Bone Grinder Shaman in the process :/

    • The vessel really has so many options. It comes with three different options of ‘attack’, and can launch Lessers from about 20″ away. It’s a tool that can produce solutions to problems when you need them, and if a plan requires a specific Animi from a Lesser Warbeast it can be produced.

      It’s also an attrition tool recycling shooting casualties, and perhaps enemy models that overextend. It’s a threat to squishy Warcasters, and with Chiller, Massacre, and a Spawned Shredder… 21-22″ threat, and two fully boosted attacks at MAT 7 and PS 10. It might not take the opponent down, but it should give him something to think about and force him on the defense.

      That’s really really solid for a 3 point investment that will almost guaranteed spawn at least one Lesser. And then there’s the Acolytes as well, and I think they might make som nice backup Chiller targets when the lines clash.

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